Royal Heritage

Hall of Famers Vs The Royals In Kansas City

2012-02-13T21:06:00.000-08:00

This one came about in a roundabout way. There was some back and forth on the Twitters today about forgotten Royals players, which lead me to look up how many players have played exactly one game with the team. Turns out there are nine such players, only three of whom got a plate appearance, and of those only Matt Tupman got a hit. (Tupman's 1-for-1 with a single in 2008 means he will forever have a career line of 1.000/1.000/1.000. I actually remember watching that single.) I clicked over to the one game Gary Martz played with KC on July 8, 1975, and saw that in Martz's lone career MLB game, he got to play with Hall of Famers George Brett and Harmon Killebrew and against Robin Yount and Hank Aaron. Not too shabby. I was especially intrigued by Hank Aaron playing in KC. I think of Aaron as just an NL guy, forgetting he played '75 and '76 with the Brewers. Turns out the Hammer played at Royals Stadium 9 times, hitting career homer number 737 against Al Fitzmorris there on May 9, 1975. It was his only homer off the Royals. That got me wondering what other Hall of Famers have played the Royals that might surprise me, so I went digging through the modern marvel that is Baseball-Reference.com to come up with this master list of regular season games played by Hall of Famers vs. the Royals in Kansas City. Here is that list (broken down into games played at Municipal and Royals/Kauffman Stadiums):

Would you have ever guessed that Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Fergie Jenkins, Ron Santo, Joe Morgan, Hoyt Wilhelm and Juan Marichal all played against the Royals in Kansas City?

Goose Gossage made his career debut at Municipal Stadium with a scoreless inning pitched on April 16, 1972.

Juan Marichal pitched in 11 American League games in his career, all with the '74 Red Sox, and one of them came at Royals Stadium. The Royals knocked him around for 7 runs in 7.1 innings, with Amos Otis and Cookie Rojas tripling and Fran Healy homering off the past his prime star.

HOFers Mike Schmidt and Ozzie Smith also played in KC in World Series games.

HOFers Willie Mays, Johnny Bench and Willie Stargell played in the July 24, 1973 Royals Stadium All-Star Game.

Games played by Hall of Famers for the Royals in Kansas City:
1366 George Brett
51 Harmon Killebrew
16 Orlando Cepeda
7 Gaylord Perry

Pic Dump III

2012-02-05T19:52:00.000-08:00

Wathan & Bo argue with replacement umps at a spring training game

1888-89 KC Cowboys manager Bill Watkins

1922 Blues

1939 Blues. Read my account of this season here.

unknown 1910 team, probably the Blues or an amateur team

1930 Blues

Municipal Stadium 1960 All-Star game program

cover of a pamphlet about the Royals Baseball Academy

Bo, Willie Wilson & Danny Tartabull, 1987

Lou Boudreau, A's manager 1955-57

Cedric Tallis, original Royals GM who drafted or traded for Amos Otis, Cookie Rojas, Freddie Patek, John Mayberry, Hal McRae, Paul Splittorff, George Brett, Dennis Leonard, Willie Wilson and more.

Bob Cerv showing off the wires that were holding together his broken jaw for a month during the '58 season. Cerv hit six homers that month and 38 for the year.

Ed Charles, 1962. Charles was the #1 KC A by rWAR.

Jerry Priddy, 1940 Blues

Howser, Wathan, Brett, 1982

Amos Otis, 1971

artist's rendering of Royals Stadium features, 1971

1981 spring training game

Vic Power & Woodie Held

Prince Fielder Comps

2012-01-25T20:21:00.000-08:00

I don't have much new to add to the Prince Fielder hubbub, but I did crunch a bunch of numbers to average what his top 10 similar batters through the age of 27 did in the next nine years of their careers. The numbers reflect what everyone except Mike Ilitch expects: two or three more highly productive years followed by a sharp decline during the bulk of the insane nine year contract. I expect Fielder to outperform the average of his comps by a bit—he has averaged 4.4 fWAR over the last five seasons, so it would be reasonable to expect similar production for the next couple of years, whereas his comps project just a 3.3 WAR in 2012 and '13. Fielder has been incredibly durable so far in his career, and his comps don't keep up with his playing time (of course, he probably won't be able to either). Still, I would hate to have the last five or six years of that contract looming over my team's future. The problem for the Royals of course is that Fielder's remaining productive years may overlap with what is the Royals hoped for window.

Here is the boring explanation of the below numbers: The top is Fielder's actual career to date, and the bottom is the average of his top 10 comps. To get the WAR numbers, I took the OBP & SLG of his comps and plugged them into this spreadsheet. I set the league average wOBA to .325, and rated Fielder at -5 UZR/150 at first base for each season (which is kind since he has been a -6.4 over his career and should only get worse). I also plugged the numbers in at DH, but it turned out WAR came out almost exactly the same for a -5 UZR/150 first baseman as for a DH. The last line totals the age 28-36 average seasons of his comps.

So nothing earth shattering here. Fielder joining the division is probably bad news for the Royals in the short term and good news in the long term.

Royals & A's Defense Independent Perfect Games

2012-01-22T12:49:00.000-08:00

My main strength as a blogger is finding cool ideas from other people and applying them to the Royals. The latest such idea to tickle my fancy is defense independent perfect games (DIPG), as dreamed up by David Wishinsky. He defined a DIPG as a nine inning game with no walks or home runs allowed. As suggested by Tom Tango, zero hit-by-pitches should also probably be included, which I have for my lists below. I have also included eight inning complete DIPG, of which there have been six in Royals history. There is yet to be an extra inning DIPG by a Royals player. There have been 96 regular season DIPG by the Royals, or about 2.2 per season. They have gotten more rare as complete games have; In the 2000s, there have been nine DIPG, or only .75 per season. No Royals pitcher pulled the trick in 2010 or '11.

Zack Greinke's insane start in 2009 shows up with four DIPG between April 18 and May 26. He only had eight starts in that span.

Kevin Appier might be the best pitcher in team history, but he only had one DIPG, and it came in an eight inning loss. Bret Saberhagen pulled the trick an impressive 15 times in the regular season, plus once in a pretty memorable World Series game seven.

Most DIPG games:

16: Bret Saberhagen

10: Mark Gubicza

7: Dennis Leonard

7: Larry Gura

6: Al Fitzmorris

5: Dick Drago

The team's record in DIPG is 84-12. Saberhagen took four of the losses.

Tom Tango also suggested making the definition stricter by requiring 13 strikeouts in an eight inning game and 15 K in a nine inning game (the reasoning behind those numbers being that the pitcher would have a 0.00 FIP for the game). No Royals player has reached that height. It has only happened 12 times since 1919 in all MLB. The most strikeouts a Royals pitcher has had in a DIPG is 10; Greinke did it twice, Mark Gubicza once and Rich Gale once.

The Royals have been on the wrong end of a DIPG 99 times; Catfish Hunter, Jimmy Key, and LaMarr Hoyt lead the way with three DIPG against the Royals each--except Hunter did it again in the '76 ALCS, the only pitcher to do it vs. the Royals in the playoffs.

The full list of Royals and KC A's DIPGs after the jump.

Rk	Player	Date	Opp	Rslt	H	ER	SO
1	Zack Greinke	2009-05-26*	DET	W 6-1	6	1	8
2	Zack Greinke	2009-05-09	LAA	L 0-1	4	1	5
3	Zack Greinke	2009-05-04	CHW	W 3-0	6	0	10
4	Zack Greinke	2009-04-18	TEX	W 2-0	7	0	10
5	Mark Redman	2006-08-29	MIN	W 2-0	5	0	3
6	D.J. Carrasco	2005-06-07	SFG	W 8-1	5	1	3
7	Paul Byrd	2002-07-29	TOR	W 4-1	5	1	5
8	Paul Byrd	2002-04-22	DET	W 6-0	6	0	4
9	Blake Stein	2000-08-18	BAL	W 4-1	8	1	6
10	Jeff Suppan	1999-08-03	ANA	W 7-0	5	0	4
11	Jose Rosado	1999-06-16*	BAL	L 1-2	7	2	6
12	Glendon Rusch	1998-06-14	DET	W 2-0	7	0	5
13	Jose Rosado	1998-05-27	ANA	W 4-0	5	0	5
14	Tim Belcher	1996-09-02	TOR	W 2-0	4	0	5
15	Tim Belcher	1996-08-17	TEX	W 4-1	6	1	5
16	Chris Haney	1996-07-11	CHW	W 3-2	8	2	7
17	Kevin Appier	1996-06-03*	OAK	L 1-2	7	2	9
18	Mark Gubicza	1996-05-24	TEX	W 8-0	4	0	2
19	Chris Haney	1996-05-05	OAK	W 2-0	3	0	7
20	Jason Jacome	1995-08-29	MIL	W 7-1	7	1	4
21	Mark Gubicza	1995-08-06	MIN	W 11-1	4	1	1
22	David Cone	1994-05-11	MIN	W 9-0	3	0	6
23	Dennis Rasmussen	1992-09-29	CAL	W 2-0	1	0	3
24	Hipolito Pichardo	1992-07-21	BOS	W 8-0	1	0	4
25	Mark Gubicza	1992-05-12	CLE	W 3-0	4	0	4
Rk	Player	Date	Opp	Rslt	H	ER	SO
26	Bret Saberhagen	1991-08-10	CLE	L 0-1	5	1	8
27	Bret Saberhagen	1991-08-04	CLE	W 2-0	3	0	9
28	Bret Saberhagen	1991-05-10	MIL	W 2-1	7	1	7
29	Mike Boddicker	1991-04-09	CLE	L 1-2	5	1	3
30	Bret Saberhagen	1990-05-23	BOS	W 4-1	7	1	5
31	Bret Saberhagen	1990-04-25*	MIL	L 0-1	4	1	4
32	Bret Saberhagen	1989-06-21	MIL	W 6-0	3	0	5
33	Mark Gubicza	1989-06-02	CAL	W 4-0	10	0	8
34	Mark Gubicza	1989-05-02	NYY	W 5-3	6	1	6
35	Bret Saberhagen	1989-04-25	NYY	W 5-3	10	2	5
36	Charlie Leibrandt	1989-04-23	BOS	W 10-0	5	0	4
37	Bret Saberhagen	1989-04-10	BAL	W 3-0	3	0	6
38	Charlie Leibrandt	1988-08-26	MIN	W 4-3	7	3	3
39	Bret Saberhagen	1988-08-13	TOR	L 0-2	11	2	8
40	Mark Gubicza	1988-04-22	BAL	W 13-1	3	1	4
41	Mark Gubicza	1987-10-04	MIN	W 10-1	8	1	4
42	Bret Saberhagen	1987-10-02	MIN	W 6-3	9	2	4
43	Danny Jackson	1987-07-23*	BAL	L 1-2	6	0	4
44	Bret Saberhagen	1987-06-12	CAL	W 1-0	3	0	8
45	Bret Saberhagen	1987-05-09	CLE	W 4-0	2	0	9
46	Charlie Leibrandt	1986-08-26	CHW	W 6-1	7	1	6
47	Mark Gubicza	1986-08-17	NYY	W 5-0	6	0	10
48	Mark Gubicza	1986-05-14	CLE	W 5-0	3	0	8
49	Dennis Leonard	1986-04-12	TOR	W 1-0	3	0	3
50	Bret Saberhagen	1985-07-08	NYY	W 5-2	5	2	7
Rk	Player	Date	Opp	Rslt	H	ER	SO
51	Bret Saberhagen	1985-05-17	MIL	W 3-0	2	0	4
52	Buddy Black	1985-05-16	CLE	W 7-1	6	1	1
53	Buddy Black	1984-05-23	CHW	W 1-0	6	0	9
54	Bret Saberhagen	1984-05-14*	CHW	L 0-2	5	2	5
55	Mark Gubicza	1984-05-12	BOS	W 3-0	4	0	3
56	Eric Rasmussen	1983-08-06	BOS	W 4-0	7	0	2
57	Dennis Leonard	1981-10-02	OAK	W 3-0	7	0	3
58	Larry Gura	1981-09-22	MIN	W 2-1	4	0	2
59	Larry Gura	1981-08-21	NYY	W 4-0	4	0	3
60	Larry Gura	1981-05-05	BOS	W 2-1	4	1	4
61	Larry Gura	1979-08-09	TOR	W 10-3	10	2	4
62	Paul Splittorff	1979-05-20	MIN	W 5-1	9	1	3
63	Dennis Leonard	1978-09-17	CAL	W 5-0	5	0	3
64	Marty Pattin	1978-09-11	OAK	W 7-2	4	2	3
65	Larry Gura	1978-08-30	CHW	W 12-0	5	0	5
66	Larry Gura	1978-07-27	SEA	W 3-1	8	1	4
67	Paul Splittorff	1978-07-21	BOS	W 9-0	6	0	1
68	Dennis Leonard	1978-07-15	NYY	W 8-2	8	2	8
69	Rich Gale	1978-06-26	CAL	W 4-0	7	0	10
70	Paul Splittorff	1978-04-18	TOR	W 5-0	5	0	4
71	Larry Gura	1977-08-04	TOR	W 8-0	9	0	3
72	Dennis Leonard	1977-07-16	NYY	W 5-1	7	0	5
73	Andy Hassler	1977-07-02	CLE	W 1-0	1	0	4
74	Dennis Leonard	1976-09-04	TEX	W 7-0	6	0	4
75	Al Fitzmorris	1976-07-16	BOS	W 2-1	5	1	2
Rk	Player	Date	Opp	Rslt	H	ER	SO
76	Doug Bird	1976-07-15	BOS	L 1-2	8	2	6
77	Dennis Leonard	1976-07-09	DET	W 1-0	4	0	8
78	Marty Pattin	1975-06-26	CAL	W 7-1	9	1	5
79	Al Fitzmorris	1975-05-27	NYY	W 3-0	3	0	3
80	Nelson Briles	1974-09-14	MIN	W 13-3	9	3	3
81	Al Fitzmorris	1974-08-24	MIL	W 4-0	3	0	4
82	Lindy McDaniel	1974-06-23	OAK	W 4-1	3	1	4
83	Al Fitzmorris	1974-06-11	MIL	W 1-0	8	0	1
84	Al Fitzmorris	1974-06-04	BAL	W 8-0	3	0	0
85	Al Fitzmorris	1974-05-26	CHW	W 4-1	9	1	1
86	Marty Pattin	1974-05-09	TEX	W 6-1	4	1	6
87	Dick Drago	1973-06-22	TEX	L 0-3	9	2	1
88	Dick Drago	1972-06-02	BOS	W 9-1	5	1	6
89	Dick Drago	1971-09-16	CAL	L 1-2	7	2	5
90	Paul Splittorff	1971-06-28	CAL	W 3-0	7	0	5
91	Mike Hedlund	1971-06-14	NYY	W 4-1	6	1	3
92	Dick Drago	1971-04-06	CAL	W 4-1	6	0	2
93	Jim Rooker	1970-09-08	CAL	W 12-0	3	0	7
94	Dave Morehead	1970-05-25	CHW	W 7-1	5	0	7
95	Dick Drago	1969-08-30	NYY	W 2-0	6	0	1
96	Roger Nelson	1969-05-21	CLE	W 4-0	7	0	5

*eight inning complete game
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used

Post-Season:

Rk	Player	Date	Series	Gm#	Opp	Rslt	H	ER	SO
1	Bret Saberhagen	1985-10-27	WS	7	STL	W 11-0	5	0	2

Kansas City A's DIPG:

Rk	Player	Date	Opp	Rslt	H	ER	SO
1	Rollie Sheldon	1965-08-28	NYY	W 4-0	3	0	5
2	Orlando Pena	1963-07-28	CLE	W 3-0	2	0	4
3	Bill Fischer	1962-08-26*	MIN	L 0-1	8	1	6
4	Ed Rakow	1962-05-20	WSA	W 1-0	5	0	2
5	Ray Herbert	1960-08-21	CHW	W 8-1	3	1	3
6	Dick Hall	1960-05-21	WSH	W 5-2	6	1	6
7	Dick Hall	1960-05-10	BAL	W 10-0	6	0	6
8	Bud Daley	1959-06-01	CHW	W 3-1	7	1	4
9	Rip Coleman	1959-05-30	CLE	W 3-1	6	1	3
10	Bud Daley	1959-05-23	CHW	W 16-0	4	0	4
11	Ralph Terry	1958-08-22	WSH	W 1-0	1	0	3
12	Dick Tomanek	1958-07-18	NYY	W 2-1	11	1	4
13	Duke Maas	1958-05-18	DET	W 2-0	2	0	4
14	Alex Kellner	1955-05-17	WSH	W 1-0	8	0	4

*eight inning complete game
Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used

80-82: Some Early 2012 Projections

2012-01-02T21:44:00.000-08:00

I've been having fun with a cool spreadsheet developed by Jeff Zimmerman that allows you to plug in expected playing time and performance for a full team and an expected win-loss record is spit out. Check out Jeff's post about it here. I've entered in my current guesses for the 2012 Royals (subject to change, but informed by past performance, Bill James projections, fan projections on Fangraphs, and my gut), and the magic spreadsheet says 80-82. As you can see, I'm not bullish on the pitching. Many of the hurlers have potential to put together better years than I've entered, but their track records don't inspire confidence. See any projections you think are way off?

Merry Christmas Baseball Fans!

2011-12-09T12:49:00.001-08:00

December 24, 1947 Kansas City Call

Royals Hall of Weighted WAR

2011-11-17T21:18:00.001-08:00

Adam Darowski has done some really cool work on something he calls wWAR, which stands for weighted wins above replacement. The main idea is to give players some extra credit for big and/or extended peaks by double counting single season WAR over 3.0 (referred to as wins above excellence or WAE) and triple counting single season WAR over 6.0 (wins above MVP or WAM). So a 4.0 WAR season would translate to a 5.0 wWAR season, a 7.0 WAR season becomes a 12.0 wWAR season, etc. Exceptions are made for catchers, who need to exceed 2.0 WAR to accumulate WAE, and relief pitchers who accumulate WAE for WAR over 1.5. Adam has also added a postseason component, using a weighted version of win probability added. I encourage you to read more in depth about wWAR here. Adam has "repopulated" the Hall of Fame with the top wWAR players in history, which you can see here. Of interest to Royals fans will be the inclusion of David Cone, Bret Saberhagen, and Kevin Appier. Adam's work naturally lead me to think about what a Royals Hall of wWAR would look like.

(I guess this is where I have to include a disclaimer that I don't think WAR is perfect or tells us everything we need to know about players, nor would I support Cooperstown or the Royals Hall basing induction only on stats. But unless you've actually watched all 6,800+ Royals games (I'm looking at you, Denny Matthews), the numbers are the best way we have to compare players, and the best all-around number we have is WAR.)

Methodology: Unlike Adam, I did not use WAR per 162 games. It makes sense for his Hall so that early players are not penalized for playing shorter schedules, but the schedule has stayed mostly the same in Royals history. The only player significantly affected by this is David Cone, whose big 1994 looks crazy big if you prorate it over a full 162 game season, and would vault him into the Royals Hall of wWAR. It doesn't seem to me that players deserve credit for things they didn't actually do for the team.

Also unlike Adam, I haven't deducted negative post-season WPA. I figure players shouldn't be penalized for being on a Royals team that reaches the playoffs. I have added credit to players with a positive post-season weighted WPA (double their WPA in ALCS plus three times WPA in the World Series). These numbers end up having little effect. They don't make or break anyone's Hall inclusion/exclusion; Paul Splittorff is the only Hall member whose ranking on the list changes.

Like Adam, I'm keeping the number of Hall of Famers the same. There are 17 current RHOFers, so I'll include the top 17 eligible Royals by wWAR.

The results: Turns out the actual RHOF matches up pretty well with the Royals Hall of wWAR. 15 of the 17 members are the same. Actual RHOFers Freddie Patek and Cookie Rojas are out while Charlie Leibrandt and Darrell Porter are in. Rojas is not anywhere close (just 4.7 wWAR, good for 70th in team history), but Patek barely misses (17.9). Using straight WAR, Patek (16.6) is higher than Steve Busby (15.5). But with Busby's higher peak, he jumps into the Hall of wWAR ahead of Patek.

Here are the members of the team Hall of wWAR, along with five players not yet eligible that have reached the wWAR standard, noted in italics. Bold indicates players that are in the real RHOF.

Just missing:

23. Joakim Soria 21.2 wWAR

24. David Cone 20.0

25. Tom Gordon 18.0

26. Freddie Patek 17.9

27. Kevin Seitzer 17.4

28. Al Fitzmorris 16.6

29. Joe Randa 15.3

30. Steve Farr 15.2

31. Mike Macfarlane 15.0

32. Danny Tartabull 14.5

32. Buddy Black 14.5

Alex Gordon 2011 Defense Highlights

2011-11-06T19:29:00.000-08:00

In honor of Alex Gordon's Gold Glove, and one of the truly elite seasons in Royals history, here are all of Alex's 2011 defensive gems I find on MLB.com:

many more after the jump

Cardinals Join '87 Twins In Rare Club

2011-10-28T22:04:00.000-07:00

The sloppy pitching and defense on display for much of the 2011 playoffs flew in the face of the old cliche "pitching wins championships."

The 2011 Cardinals squeaked in as the NL wild card despite giving up 4.3 runs a game in the regular season in a year when the NL average was 4.1. Their offense scored 4.7 a game, carrying them to 90 wins. Their pitching and defense did not step up in the playoffs either - they allowed the same 4.3 runs per game in the postseason. The already good offense kicked it up a notch to the tune of 5.6 runs/game.

Not park adjusting, and rounding to the tenth decimal, the 2011 Cards join the '87 Twins as the only champs to have had below-average run prevention in the regular season.

Satchel Grips A Ball Grips Satchel

2011-10-24T13:01:00.000-07:00

July 17, 1948 Chicago Defender

2009-11 fWAR All-Stars

2011-10-19T16:04:00.000-07:00

This is what the ideal 25 man roster might look like strictly using the objective measure of the past three seasons' worth of Fangraphs WAR. (You can compare it to the '08-'10 All-Stars here.)

Run Scoring & Prevention By World Series Champs

2011-10-18T21:49:00.000-07:00

I have posted charts plotting Royals seasons by team ERA+ and OPS+ in the past, charts that were inspired by posts on Bay City Ball and The Hardball Times. The Hardball Times piece by Paapfly was especially interesting to me. It seemed to show that pitching was an absolute must to win a championship, but many sub-par offensive teams have managed to win it all. This seemed to prove the adage that pitching is indeed what wins championships. Here is my version of Paapfly's chart plotting champions by their team ERA+ and OPS+:

I recently found myself reading through the comments on Paapfly's post, and then on a thread about the article on Tangotiger's The Book Blog. Commenters pointed out several flaws with using OPS+ and ERA+ as the measure of a team's offense and defense. Paapfly himself took those suggestions to heart and wrote a second piece in which he made some adjustments but still used ERA+ and OPS+.

Several commenters mentioned runs scored and runs allowed would be the way to measure. And of course, nothing gets closer to the heart of offense and defense than runs. As far as I know, no one took the suggestion and plotted the World Series winners by runs scored and allowed. I have done that below, comparing each championship team's RS/G and RA/G to their respective league's seasonal average. There is no park adjustment, something that would probably improve the accuracy a bit, but the raw numbers were good enough for me. It does tell a different story than OPS+ and ERA+:

This restores a little sanity on the offensive side, shoving the vast majority of winners into the upper right quadrant of above average in run scoring and prevention. It does uphold the importance of run prevention, given that the 1987 Twins are the only champs to allow more runs per game than the league average. (The 2011 Cardinals will try to be the second.) Those Twins are even more freakish since they were only an average offensive team. There are seven teams that won it all with a below average regular season offense (1916 Red Sox, 1924 Senators, 1965 Dodgers, 1969 Mets, 1985 Royals, 1995 Braves, and 2005 White Sox). All seven of those teams had superb run prevention. The 1985 Royals are the worst offensive champs by this measure, scoring just 4.2 a game in a year when the AL average was 4.6.

The average champion has scored .5 runs per game above average, and allowed .6 fewer runs per game, perhaps suggesting a slight edge to teams who excel at run prevention more than run scoring. But the vast majority of the time, it is both pitching and hitting that win championships.

Joe Posnanski:

..."Pitching wins championships." I don't think that's quite right. I think there are more great offensive teams that have won the World Series than great pitching teams. It's just that most of the great offensive teams also had at least good pitching. The 1992 Toronto Blue Jays heavily leaned offense -- they finished ninth in ERA. But that's pretty unusual.

On the other hand, several of the best pitching teams to win the World Series -- and the 2010 Giants fit right in -- had subpar offenses (at least until the playoffs). So I don't know that it's right to say that pitching wins championships. But I do think it's fair to say that you have a better chance to win a championship with great pitching and terrible hitting than the other way around.